Alfie rocks! -- Criegod 22:11, 21 June 2012 (PDT)
[By the way, there's a glitch in the audio at 49:58 in part 1]
Just listened to the Alfie segment again. His views are so right on and, it seems to me, profoundly transformational in scope and implication, that i think very few people have shed their conditioning enough to embrace them fully.
I wanted to comment on the question regarding M. Scott Peck's statement that there's no such thing as altruism.
Alfie responded (in part):
Altruism only means, at least the way i look at it, that I helped you only to help you. That goes on every day.
This seems like a very superficial treatment of the actual motivations involved but the "disagreement" in views (from people who seem, to me, to have the same basic orientation) is something that came to my attention long ago and i believe to be purely... a matter of semantics.
The semantical problems arise for reasons that aren't entirely clear to me, but are hinted at by the frequent conflation of the concepts of "altruism" and "self-sacrifice."
I happened to see the following in an online discussion (that turned into a comparison of the views of Robert Heinlein and Ayn Rand).
The word "altruism" was coined by an atheistic collectivist named Auguste Comte in the 19th century. He wanted to replace Christianity and the worship of God with "a religion of humanity", the worship of man not as an individual but only in the mass. He condemned Christianity as selfish for exalting the immortality of the individual soul. He founded a philosophy of "positivism", reducing everything to "science", and he also founded "sociology".
Thus we can see the murky and possibly somewhat disreputable origins of this word and idea (if you believe the above).
I always thought that the idea of altruism was that i would be doing certain things basically for no reason. If it wasn't because these things benefitted me, then why? I think the answer to this almost necessarily brought in (for reasons involving the "religious" and controlling/dominating nature of the culture) the idea of self-sacrifice and some corresponding religious/ethical directives that we're supposed to adhere to.
Personally, i always look for a real motivation, regardless of how people delude themselves. Mother Teresa, for instance, was motivated not only by the obvious (and accepted) enticements that the afterlife and spiritual/religious merit in reward for services rendered provide (brownie points with God), but by the much realer motivation of being able to think about herself and her relationship with the world in ways which must have provided some tangible payoff.
Really, trying to think rationally about this stuff is like slogging through a bog.
I find that my thinking on this matter was (i admit with some chagrin) influenced by my reading of Ayn Rand as a young person. I'm no fan of hers, but i dug around for this quote that i had (mistakenly) thought was from Robert Heinlein:
It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's
someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service,
there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of
sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the
master.
-- Ayn Rand
I believe that the acceptance (to the degree that it is) by the masses of the notion of altruism as a virtue has, in fact, been something that has been exploited and reinforced by a ruling class that hopes to benefit thereby. It certainly doesn't make much rational sense (as -- primitively -- conceived). Since this is something that the privileged class obviously don't practice (systemically), the glaringly obvious and growing disparity between them and us contradicts the idea of altruism and sacrifice as virtues. Thus there are ideological benefits to be had by encouraging us to accept some of their values which they have failed to keep successfully concealed.
It seems obvious to me that it is in our nature as social creatures that we benefit ourselves -- both on a feeling level, and by establishing and strengthening social bonds -- when we help others. And i don't think many people would argue with that. I've even heard people call this pure selfishness on our part. It's all a matter of semantics. I just happen to think that it is foolish not to honestly acknowledge that, of course, everything we do is for our individual benefit -- on some level. Sometimes the level can be pretty deep... and obviously interwoven with the larger benefit to the whole (from which we're not separate). Rather than argue semantics, better to work on understanding the nature of ourselves as social beings and the relationships we have with each other.
The question, to me, is not about selfishness or altruism, but about the depth of our understanding of the nature of both our short-term and longer term interests, individually _and_ collectively (because none of us is wholly separate and apart from the whole).
Anyway, something to think about. In searching for that Heinlein (sic) quote, i ran across some other quotations that i think have some bearing on the issue of the conflation of altruism and self-sacrifice. Skip or enjoy as you are so inclined.
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Beware of altruism. It is based on self-deception, the root of all evil.
I don't trust a man who talks about ethics when he is picking my pocket. But if he is acting in his own self-interest and says so, I have usually been able to work out some way to do business with him.
If tempted by something that feels "altruistic," examine your motives and root out that self-deception. Then, if you still want to do it, wallow in it!
Never appeal to a man's "better nature." He may not have one. Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage.
Being generous is inborn; being altruistic is a learned perversity. No resemblance.
Selfishness is the bedrock on which all moral behavior starts and it can be immoral only when it conflicts with a higher moral imperative.
[all of above from Heinlein]
I slept and I dreamed that life is all joy. I woke and I saw that life is all service. I served and I saw that service is joy. -- Khalil Gibran
How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortune of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it, except the pleasure of seeing it. -- Adam Smith
It is pleasure that lurks in the practice of every one of your virtues. Man performs actions because they are good for him, and when they are good for other people as well they are thought virtuous: if he finds pleasure in helping others he is benevolent; if he finds pleasure in working for society he is public-spirited; but it is for your private pleasure that you give twopence to a beggar as much as it is for my private pleasure that I drink another whiskey and soda. I, less of a humbug than you, neither applaud myself for my pleasure nor demand your admiration. -- W. Somerset Maugham [from "Of Human Bondage"]
Just practice good, do good for others, without thinking or making yourself known so that you may gain reward. Really bring benefit to others, gaining nothing for yourself. This is the primary requisite for breaking free of attachments to the Self. -- Dogen
[and why would one want to do that? To end one's own suffering?]
In protecting oneself, others are protected; In protecting others, oneself is protected. -- the Buddha
The stem of greatness sprouts from the seed of sacrifice. -- Kedar Joshi
Spiritual destiny is manifested in the lives of those who stand out from the masses and actually do something, who live a creative life for the benefit of others. -- Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami
True love grows by sacrifice and the more thoroughly the soul rejects natural satisfaction the stronger and more detached its tenderness becomes. -- St. Theresa of Lisieux
He who gives what he would as readily throw away gives without generosity; for the essence of generosity is in self-sacrifice. -- Henry Taylor
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In conclusion, irrespective of whether we behave "selfishly" or "altruistically" (a false dichotomy) the nub of the matter is that our highly "individualized" mode of existence, foisted upon us by a system of control and domination, is not good for us.